This is Scary

[Aegle]

Perhaps we should take a look at the State of Oregon which instituted a form of State run health care.  I heard about a lady was denied treatments for cancer by the state government, but that they would pay for hospice or provided her with self inflicted suicide if she so desired to.
 

This rumor began after an Oregon congressman suggested there be a provision included in whatever healthcare plan they decided upon which would allow people to sit down, one-on-one, with a physician and make up a living will. How does that turn into the rumor quoted above?

I'm sorry but this is the sort of misinformation we have to push aside if we want to have a meaningful debate.

[JoKeR]

Yeah, Just a rumor Aegle, Tell that to Barbra Wagner.

http://www.katu.com/news/26119539.html?video=YHI&t=a

I'm sure she would agree it just a rumor.  I don't understand why you darned liberals won't wake up and smell the coffee. Go our and do a little research for yourselves and you'll see that what conservatives like myself have been trying tell you all.  No, just keep your blinders on, Let's pay for the whole damn world. Let's just bankrupt the county, sell ourselves to China, (ooppps forgot we did that already),  start digging rice paddies in our back yards.

All you darn liberal butt holes can think about is to take from the rich and give it to everyone else.  I for one is not rich, but nor do I wish to take from others who have worked hard for what they have.  On the other hand you guys would like nothing more than to see everyone having the everything for free and not having to work for anything.  That my friends is communism.  The problem is there is still the wealthy class and they control who lives or dies.

Do you think our senators and congressmen are going to same level of health plan as you and I if they go through with the health bill Obama wants to pass????  No damn way! They see there selves way above you and I my friend.  Yet the dumb A$$e$$ of this country will keep voting for them.

Hawk read the first 500 pages of the bill, that makes him about 1/2 way through it.   

I bet if you asked all the people who voted for that ignorant a$$ about half wouldn't vote for him again.  The guy is a liar, a militant immigrant who is not a US born citizen, who has seized the power of the greatest nation on earth.
Riled up you say??  Darn right I'm riled up.  I hate seeing my country being destroyed from the inside out.

Can't wait for the "brown shirts" to start showing up at my door.

[Aegle]

Like you, Joker, I have to rely on various sources for my information and can be misled just as you and everyone else can. If I have used false information I am only too happy to be told so and I will adjust my thinking accordingly.

I have been trying to find out whether euthenasia is, in fact, legal in Oregon but have drawn a blank. I have read that the state of Oregon, like Insurance plans all over the USA denies pay outs for experimental drugs or those that offer less than a 5% chance of success. I have also read that what the state offered as an alternative was hospice care and not euthenasia. I'm prepared to admit however that I am not certain of these facts so I don't know whether to believe your source or other contra sources that I have read.

I had hoped to enter into a reasonable debate on this subject but I'm not sure I can continue if responses are going to include labelling me a darned liberal because I want to debate the subject and using words like liberal "butt holes"

It will be a sad day if we cannot debate something without it degenerating into that kind of language.

[shrapnel]

I have said this before but will say it again. I am not a censor of anyone's opinions but I am expected to ensure that the Forum Protocol is followed. That protocol states:

"Exercise common sense and be considerate toward your fellow users. Diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token, insults and "flaming" are not tolerated. Disagreeing with an idea of another community member is different from attacking that individual."

Joker, buddy, I think you're maybe skating a wee bit close to the line. Do me a favor and moderate your language. Hey you never know...if you speak nicely to folks they may start to agree with you. 

[Modeam]

Aegle
 the real situation here is that your  government is broke.! Through years of social programs and corruption. They have no money for social security for all the baby boomers that are getting ready to retire!  They have wasted it and or mismanaged it. The actual fact is that without barrowing money from and Industrialized country like China where they manufacture things we would have no money for any government programs and or government employees at all !  This means that your new government that is in place right now with its socialist agenda  you might as well endorse your weekly checks to them
I for one will not nor will I ever I'm so in shock that a government like this has taken this avenue, an avenue that is bent on destruction of my country. I for one have never wanted anything from my government and if I was left to my own I might even be able to afford Health Care for myself and my wife. Instead I'm subject to a binge and purge economy every ten years (Ask yourself what kind of president would ask its citizens to report other citizens for comments and or emails or any form of communication)
But instead I'm Taxed Licensed and Feed to death probably with all included it amounts to 50% now Now think about it for just a moment where do you think that this government is going to get the funds for this health care bill. Oh that's right there going to get rid of the insurance industry and move to a single payer system. Now one thing is where will all these employees of the insurance industry find work at. Maybe they can all be maids at the White House course I don't think they will need a million maids. That's just off the top of my head . And let's see what about government sponsored unitization when you check in at 65 and then every 5 years after. Now is the time to stop this mad man every policy talked about and or initiated like (cap and trade )is for the destruction of America this man is a traitor.
My family didn't fight for this country to see this happen to it I can trace my ancestry to  Martha Washington  and beyond .  Aegle if you voted for this guy instead of being so stubborn stand up and align yourself for a battle a battle for freedom.  Because I know my god didn't put me on this earth to be subservient to anyone or any government. For if you don't one day what you once thought was white will now be called black (or you'll be told it is black and like it !!!! )

[Aegle]

I understand what you are trying to articulate, Modeam. I understand what leads you to believe the way you do but it will come as no surprise to read that I disagree with some of what you say.

I did not enter into this debate to defend the government nor the proposed health care bill. I am as disenchanted with our elected representatives as anyone else. I hate the way in which every proposal is treated like a political football. They can never reach agreement on anything because they are catering to whatever lobbying group they have sold their souls to or they are thinking of what course will best keep them in office. Frankly I do not distinguish between liberal and conservative politicians. I hold them all equally responsible for the mess we are in. What I find difficult to swallow is that all our problems started in January this year with the swearing in of the present President. Did I vote for him? No I didn't but it will come as no surprise to you that I did vote for Hillary in the primaries. Not doubt that option is just as offensive to you as the Obama one.

To be truthful I don't know where Obama's policies are leading us. I don't for one minute think he is as evil as you seem to think but I admit to not knowing what the eventual outcome of his policies will be. Nevertheless I am certainly not ready to embrace thoughts of revolution against our elected government.

As for the proposed Health Care Bill I do not agree with everything in it. I do, however, believe very strongly that action is needed because the present system is deteriorating rapidly. When I entered into this debate it was because I strongly opposed the way in which things were being twisted in the video you posted. I believe I can take any of the accusations in it and prove that they do not accurately reflect the wording of the bill. That doesn't mean that I am defending the bill. It's just that I want disagreement with the bill to be based on factual interpretation and not on lies. I agree there is much in the bill that needs to be debated but I think we all need to realize there are opposing forces at work here that do not have the interests of you and I at heart. There are lobbies that obviously see reductions in their financial interest if the bill is passed. There are also groups that want to see the country fail just to prove that they are right in their opposition to the government.

It was probably a forlorn hope, but I had hoped we could discuss the need for changes in our health care system without it becoming a battle between liberal and conservative doctrines.  Is it fair for me to be branded as a "bleeding heart liberal" just because I see a need for health care reform?  Whether we come from Northern, Southern or Western states, as individuals we want the same things for ourselves and our families. It will be a shame if we let people with vested interests tear us apart to serve their selfish ends.

[TS_Honolulu_Ho]

Well, it works a treat in Germany for decades already. So you better be careful with such statements, if you don´t know.

I was careful in my statement and I do know.

I find this very surprising that you live in Germany and don't know that your form of medical care is NOT socialized medicine.

The German health care system is unique in its attempt to combine competition among sickness funds [nonprofit health insurers] on the one hand and a universal coverage plan on the other hand.

No, it's not a socialized system, because you can pick your insurance, public or private. Many people can even opt [out], and the sickness funds compete for members. You have free hospital or physician choice; there are very few limits on choice in the system. ... In a socialized system, everything is planned; in Germany, basically everything is open for nonprofit competition.

Don't believe me?  Ask Prof. Karl Lauterbach Health economist and member of German parliament, your fellow countryman will be glad to enlighten you.

next.....

[H@wk]

My opinion,

I am appalled at what is going on and do not like what I predict will be in the future.

We have a man as President that if you ask people who voted for him and why there answer is, I don't know, maybe it was his slogan of change that they just comprehended.

Things are trying or have been pushed to quickly on the American people that makes us dizzy and not understood what has been shoved down our throats before we fully understand the long term effects.

Take the cash for clunkers, total failure, then they pump more of our money into it and do not know where the money is coming from. If you take advantage of it the government will then own your computer and you.

This Health care proposal is a joke in itself and I had spoken to several Doctors, since I'm such a good customer to them, but make no mistake I made sure some questions I asked were for my benefit not theirs.

What's the next move in this real life chess game?

Legalizing 25 million illegal aliens?

Oh you say that would be a good thing but what would really happen would be a secure vote for this regime for the next election.

We all must wake the fek up and look at the reasons for the so called, "Change", we are a nation that is drug induced, conditioned to follow like sheep and controlled by a few who enjoy greed and deception.

Let this thread be the proof of things to come that will divide us into destruction, Tea Parties will start getting bigger and more frequently.

What will be the solution?

A false sense of security?

For instance, stock market seems to be heading up, it's being manipulated.

Unemployment rate decreased last month but still lost 300,000 jobs, but better then the prior month.

Seeing more homeless people on busy intersections waiting for welfare to be brought back.

Think what will happen when unemployment hits 25% nation wide and mark my words, it will.

Change,

There will be a whole chitload of change in favor of the worthless scum that roam our streets and are marked for a vote to be used, yeah, change is good but maybe not.

Time tells all, so debate your asses off cause talk is cheap.

What happens when the government takes over the public sector?

Wont go there cause you wouldn't want it to go there.

See you all in the land of the free, dead or alive.

I am who I am and see what I see, I don't like whats going on with our government so, People get ready there's a train a coming, picking up passengers from coast to coast.

[Aegle]

You all want to blame the new government for a decline that has been going on for more than a decade. You insist on turning what could be a meaningful debate on health care into an extreme right wing diatribe. I hoped in vain that we could forget our political persuasions (real or imagined), forget these entrenched and extreme political dogmas and rationally discuss what all of us want; an affordable quality health care system. I never said it had to be the Obama plan. I was open to debate on what the proposals really are and not on what extremists twist it into. However it seems that I am expected to accept everything that has been thrust down your throats by groups that have no interest in our well being; only their own.

Joker associates the government with communism or, at best, extreme socialism. At the same time he wants us to believe that it will generate fascism in the form of a brown shirt brigade. Recent activity at health care debates clearly demonstrates who is adopting "brown shirt" tactics. The exact same lies that are expressed in the video that started this debate are being chanted by public dupes at every meeting held to discuss the subject of health care. In the same way, in my efforts to have a rational discussion here, I am being "shouted down" by repetition of these same fairy stories. It seems that to counter the extreme nature of your arguments I must go to the other extreme. A shame really when we could have discussed this like friends who only want what is best for our country, our family's and ourselves. Others have explained the current right wing movement much more eloquently than I ever could. Since you seem to expect it of me I will turn to a liberal source for the following excerpt:

Fascism in the US (by Sara Robinson excerpted from Alternet)

"All through the Bush years, progressive right-wing watchers refused to call it "fascism" because, though we kept looking, we never saw clear signs of a deliberate, committed institutional partnership forming between America's conservative elites and its emerging homegrown brownshirt horde. We caught tantalizing signs of brief flirtations -- passing political alliances, money passing hands, far-right moonbat talking points flying out of the mouths of "mainstream" conservative leaders. But it was all circumstantial, and fairly transitory. The two sides kept a discreet distance from each other, at least in public. What went on behind closed doors, we could only guess. They certainly didn't act like a married couple.
Now, the guessing game is over. We know beyond doubt that the Teabag movement was created out of whole cloth by astroturf groups like Dick Armey's FreedomWorks and Tim Phillips' Americans for Prosperity, with massive media help from FOX News. We see the Birther fracas -- the kind of urban myth-making that should have never made it out of the pages of the National Enquirer -- being openly ratified by Congressional Republicans. We've seen Armey's own professionally-produced field manual that carefully instructs conservative goon squads in the fine art of disrupting the democratic governing process -- and the film of public officials being terrorized and threatened to the point where some of them required armed escorts to leave the building. We've seen Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner applauding and promoting a video of the disruptions and looking forward to "a long, hot August for Democrats in Congress."
This is the sign we were waiting for -- the one that tells us that yes, kids: we are there now. America's conservative elites have openly thrown in with the country's legions of discontented far right thugs. They have explicitly deputized them and empowered them to act as their enforcement arm on America's streets, sanctioning the physical harassment and intimidation of workers, liberals, and public officials who won't do their political or economic bidding.
This is the catalyzing moment at which honest-to-Hitler fascism begins. It's also our very last chance to stop it."

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

No, it's not a socialized system, because you can pick your insurance, public or private.

Lol, as being a german I´d know that, don´t you think ?

Actually it is an option to pick a private insurance, if you want to and have the money but everyone has to be a member of at least a public health care fund. There is noone, absolutely noone not a member of any kind of health care fund.

Originally (many decades ago) the public health funds should ensure a minimum of medical treatment for everyone. Nowadays the germans are ´richer´ than decades ago and the ´minimum´ isn´t enough for many. So our health care system became very expensive too, since all wanted to have the better medicines and better treatments. In the 70ies we didn´t pay 15,8% from our gross wages for the health funds, as we do now. But then again the medicines and medical science wasnt´t that good and progressive as today.

One example for the difference between public and private health care insurances in Germany:

If you are a member of a public health fund only, you can´t pick a room, when you´ve to stay in hospital. They´ll allocate you most likely a room, you´ll have to share with 2 or 3 other patients.

Not so, if you´re a member of a private insurance. For sure they´ll give you a single-room and if needed more public health fund members will have to sleep together in one room, only for emptying a room for a private member.

The difference between germans and americans in this regard seems to be:

The germans don´t mind to share a room with 2 or 3 other patients. Far from it ! They even find it more entertaining, though I must admit I also had some annoyances and inconviniences already, while sharing a room with 2 or 3 other patients, when one of them was a snorer and the other one had to ring for the night nurse every 30 minutes.  

Nevertheless: the majority of germans are members of the public health funds only and a few who can - and want afford a private insurance.

But perhaps we´re at cross-purposes here, so I´ve to ask you what is your understanding of ´socialized medicine´?

[Aegle]

I think, Tulla that most Americans understand socialized medicine to be totally government run as in the UK or Canada. US government is run by political hacks at the top with frustrated and inept bureaucrats from the middle down. This makes us very wary of having anything like health care run by the Government. We fear that ineptitude and corruption would make the system both exorbitantly expensive and inefficient.

I tend to think that some sort of combination of the German and Swedish systems, tailored to  meet US conditions, would work well. It's interesting to see Karl Lauterbach being quoted since he is an eminent "tree hugger" who, in addition to whatever role he has in Germany, was an adjunct professor at Harvard University. Somewhat ironic I thought but then we tend to take our quotes from any source as long as they seem to score a point in our favor  :)

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

I think, Tulla that most Americans understand socialized medicine to be totally government run as in the UK or Canada. US government is run by political hacks at the top with frustrated and inept bureaucrats from the middle down. This makes us very wary of having anything like health care run by the Government. We fear that ineptitude and corruption would make the system both exorbitantly expensive and inefficient.

I tend to think that some sort of combination of the German and Swedish systems, tailored to  meet US conditions, would work well.

I must admit, I never heard anything about Herrn Lauterbach yet, so I had a quick read at Wikipedia. Thank you for the explanation, Aegle.

My next questions would be: are the plans of Obama going in the direction of a ´socialized medicine´ following the canadian and british example then ? Or is it going to be ´tailored´somehow ? Are his plans irrevocable or is there room for alternative suggestions ?

Are the reps totally against any form of health care funds for everyone or just against the plans of Obama ?

[Aegle]

I am beginning to believe that I should not have contributed to this thread as my posts are serving only to cause bitterness and anger. That is not good for the community as a whole. I guess it's true that friends should never discuss religion nor politics. No doubt someone will quote me as saying "I am beginning to believe that I should not contribute to this thread." in what they consider to be clever repartee. Be my guest. In the meantime I will attempt to give a comparatively brief response to Tulla's question.

Those behind the current proposals would deny that they are aiming at socialized medicine. But opponents of the proposals would like us to believe that it is going in the direction of socialized medicine and, of course, it is a very real fear that the government  portion of the solution could grow and gradually eliminate private insurance. There is a risk that, if there is a government insurance option (only supposed to fill a gap for those who do not have a private insurance option) employers will see it as a way for them to drop their obligation to provide private insurance plans for their employees.

Presently the number of uninsured Americans is growing, premiums are skyrocketing, and more people are being denied coverage every day. Most of us, regardless of our political persuasion believe that a better system is also essential to rebuilding our economy -- we want to make health insurance work for people and businesses, not just insurance and drug companies.

You will understand that it is difficult for anyone to give a brief outline of a proposed bill that is 1000 pages in length but the government's stated objectives are:

To reform the system by expanding coverage, improving quality, lowering costs, honoring patient choice and holding insurance companies accountable.

To put responsible science and technological innovation ahead of ideology when it comes to medical research in order to find cures for diseases that are causing too many deaths and suffering at present

To improve preventative care by providing better screening and record keeping technology to eliminate errors without

Obviously we have to see past the government propaganda and examine what the proposed bill really means and this is where the country is being torn apart. Staunch Obama supporters seem content to blindly accept the bill while extreme conservatives with interested lobby groups behind them are determined to prevent passage of the bill.

This brings us to the present debate in this forum which started, as you know with the posting of a dramatic video which claims to expose the government's hidden agenda. It makes various  claims that would worry any American and backs them up by referring to supposedly relevant sections of the 1000 page proposal. If you really do your homework, however and actually read the relevant sections of the proposal you find that the claims are either a matter of taking words out of context, twisting the meaning or just outright lying. While this type of propaganda is transparent to some it appeals to those who want to believe, at all costs, that their government is evil and has ulterior intentions.

It is a terrible shame that good honest people, as I am sure most of the people in the AA community are, cannot get down to discussing the real issues and flaws in the proposals because they cannot get past the propaganda like claims being fed to the public by those who want to maintain the status quo for their own financial benefit.

[Vipor]

I think, Tulla that most Americans understand socialized medicine to be totally government run as in the UK or Canada. US government is run by political hacks at the top with frustrated and inept bureaucrats from the middle down. This makes us very wary of having anything like health care run by the Government. We fear that ineptitude and corruption would make the system both exorbitantly expensive and inefficient.

I tend to think that some sort of combination of the German and Swedish systems, tailored to  meet US conditions, would work well.

I must admit, I never heard anything about Herrn Lauterbach yet, so I had a quick read at Wikipedia. Thank you for the explanation, Aegle.

My next questions would be: are the plans of Obama going in the direction of a ´socialized medicine´ following the canadian and british example then ? Or is it going to be ´tailored´somehow ? Are his plans irrevocable or is there room for alternative suggestions ?

Are the reps totally against any form of health care funds for everyone or just against the plans of Obama ?

All great questions Tulla. And ones that no one seems to be able to answer even after reading and or listening to what is being proposed. Hence the hesitancy to agree or pass thru something so vague. (At least that what is being said bout this in some mediums)

Personally I just received an offer for a new type of coverage which isn't insurance at all. It is jsut a negotiated discount or flat fee for over 700,000 physicians and hospitals, health care facilities throughout the country. It would reduce my monthly fees about 80% but takes away decent coverage for catastrophic medical needs such as hospitalization, expensive non-generic prescriptions and or other out of the ordinary health needs that would require longer term care. So , if I want to gamble on there not being a crisis with my 2 children or myself, I can save about $350 a month. If I do have a crisis, I am covered but only at a discount between 40% to 70%..... tough call.....

anyway..what was this topic about?

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

All great questions Tulla. And ones that no one seems to be able to answer even after reading and or listening to what is being proposed. Hence the hesitancy to agree or pass thru something so vague. (At least that what is being said bout this in some mediums)

Thanks Vipor, I didn´t thought it would be easy to answer. So what you (we) all could need is what we call ´Butter bei die Fische´ (butter to the fishes) in northern Germany, which means some transparency and straight words.

If you really do your homework, however and actually read the relevant sections of the proposal you find that the claims are either a matter of taking words out of context, twisting the meaning or just outright lying. While this type of propaganda is transparent to some it appeals to those who want to believe, at all costs, that their government is evil and has ulterior intentions.

There rings a bell again.... :/


Thanks again for the explanation, Aigle.

In Germany those, who can´t express their opinions and beliefs in a polite manner do disqualify themselves for taking part in intelectual debates about whatever topic, no matter how emotional it is and wont be taken serious anyway. It surely is a question of education.

I must admit I also always struggle, when discussants coming up with very doubtful sources in order to back their statement(s) up and when I pick it up, they simply start to impeach the credibility of the sources I used myself. A discussion is condemned to die at this point. Dead end...

So, we all believing in something. And in most cases we´re using any sources to make up our minds. We all know that there are sources out there, having the only purpose to manipulate us. But many can´t recognize them, while others don´t want to recognize them because they support their wrong beliefs and opinions. Others again are manipulated already from their childhood on....(e.g. Daddy said so and it got burned into their brains, because Daddy can´t be wrong) It´s nearly impossible to change them....

The only way out is to deny discussing with them and not to reply, hoping nobody will reply and let it die. It´s not worth wasting time with them. And there are lots of intelectuals out there, not able to look beyond their own noses too. Common sense is very rare these days, not only in the USA.

And it could be so easy to debate such simple things, when following some simple rules...